“Hell, of course, is the mother of all of my problems with the bible. It is perhaps the most despicable and hideous of all of the Christian God’s crimes. Indeed, the cruelest of all concentration camps.”“Most courts of law would take custody of your child from you just for an excessive spanking. We as a people enacted these laws, for we thought them to be logical. Is God above logic, or what we deem as compassionate behavior?”
THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THIS IS A “FALSE ARGUMENT, BECAUSE THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS A CHILD OF GOD CAN GO TO HELL; It is the “Illegitimate” Children of Satan THAT SPEND ETERNITY WITH THEIR FATHER SATAN,WHICH IS ONLY PROPER!
“Free Will”, You Say?
“It is also written that I was given free will with which to choose if I will go to hell or not. How can you possibly deem something free when you must fear consequences?”
HERE I WOULD ASK
Is the FACT that we enjoy freedom in this country any reason to believe that, that freedom does not come with CONSEQUENCES ATTACHED and responsibilities as well?
Breathing is FREE to do but if you breath in something bad, there are consequences to your body, but breathing is still free to do! How dare this be true, why can't I breath in whatever I want without harm?The same is true with FREE WILL, you can do whatever you choose to do but don't cry about the results not being what you intended when you choose to do it!
Its always funny to me how we justify stupid behavior by BLAMING GOD for the way things are set up to work, if you break the rules in the instructions you cannot blame the manufacturer of the product. The only way to sue the manufacturer is if there is a DESIGN flaw that causes the problem.
Its always funny to me how we justify stupid behavior by BLAMING GOD for the way things are set up to work, if you break the rules in the instructions you cannot blame the manufacturer of the product. The only way to sue the manufacturer is if there is a DESIGN flaw that causes the problem.
EVERY ACTION WHETHER PHYSICAL OR SPIRITUAL HAS AN “EQUAL & OPPOSITE REACTION.
We as Americans have responsibility to function within the Laws of our country. If we go outside those Laws WE will be incarcerated or fined for the time allowed by Law, we cannot get around the Law just because we are “Citizens” of this country.}
“That (says she) completely conflicts with the definition of free. If I were to hold a gun to your head and say “you have free will to not give me your wallet, but if you attempt to defy me I will kill you.” Does it really feel as if you have a choice in the matter? Of course not.”
“Free means to give or receive something with out an expectation of return. The whole free will concept is self-defeating. Call it Circumstantial Will, for that is what it truly is.”
“That indeed, we as children of God, chose rather to be hell’s inmates then God’s disciples in heaven. It’s an interesting idea. However, you don’t have to hurt anyone to get into Hell. All it takes, according to Scripture, is knowing about Jesus and not accepting him as Savior.”
WHAT JESUS DID TO STOP YOU FROM GOING TO HELL!
Here is where I would contend that she AND MOST IN THE CHURCHES have a total misunderstanding of the WILL of man.
You see the ONLY TIME THAT MAN’S WILL WAS TRULY FREE in the Bible is BEFORE THE FALL,WHEN HE WALKED WITH GOD FACE TO FACE!
AFTER THE FALL HIS WILL WAS THEN PULLED BY SIN AND SHADED IN THE VOID OF EVIL,WHEREVER “GOODNESS”WAS ABSENT.
The problem now is that our “mind, will & emotions” are under a shadow, a void, where our understanding must be “Enlightened” by God to TRULY SEE THE WAY- It does NOT matter whether or NOT our will is Free or Enslaved, it is still the only will we have to choose with.
But the real issue lies with “A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING ABOUT GOD’S ORIGINAL PLAN FOR US and because of this missing piece of the puzzle we “DECIDE OR CHOOSE” by wrong information given to us by satanic beings leading us astray and a fallen heart filled with darkness which blinds our choices .
But it is STILL your WILL tainted as it is:
It is the part of you that DECIDES THINGS, that is spiritually being “RAPED” by demonic lies. And each time a lie is accepted it becomes easier and easier to believe the lie!
OR IT CAN BE “GUIDED” BY GOD TO MAKE A RIGHT CHOICE!
But SHE IS RIGHT ABOUT one thing here ACCEPTING JESUS AS SAVIOR BEING THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID HELL!
THIS IS THE TRUE CHOICE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, FOR JESUS EMBODIES ALL THE PERFECTIONS OF HEAVEN!
He and he alone can make the right choices because he’s been there and has a “bird’s eye view” of the future! He alone has the KEY to death and Hell, He alone is the Doorway to heaven!
We have SELFISH, SELF ABSORBED WILLS THAT ARE BOUND BY WORLDLY PLEASURES AND MISCONCEPTIONS OF THOUGHT.
Our minds IN Hell will EMBODY ALL THE “REGRETFUL SUFFERINGS OF life”ONCE WE “DIE”.
Remember HELL won't freeze over!
We will “KNOW FULLY WHAT WE’VE MISSED OUT ON “BECAUSE OF OUR PERSONAL CHOICES” TO SERVE SELF INSTEAD OF GOD, and this in turn will produce the “Physical sufferings of our spiritual bodies” in hell.
The suffering will equal our personal choices in life, no one will suffer for others sins so each punishment will be JUST! God KNOWS your secrets!
HELL EXISTS!
THIS IS A FACT!
Our personal beliefs do not change reality in this life or the next. No amount of “Worldly Reasoning” will make the slightest difference to the Judgement seat of Christ!
But there are those who try to attack GOD’S CHARACTER ABOUT HELL,which is like attacking the “WARDEN’S CHARACTER” BECAUSE HE RUNS A PRISON SANCTIONED BY THE LAW OF THE LAND!
ASK YOURSELF: Why would Jesus use wording that seems to be BASED UPON pagan false doctrine IF IT REALLY WERE FALSE DOCTRINE ?
The suggestion that Jesus used Jewish Fable and Pagan false doctrine in Luke 16 is inconceivable, not to mention stupid reasoning!
Arians, who believe Jesus sided with the Sadducees view of extinction, simply cannot explain Luke 16 which teaches the opposite reality.
They are forced into falsely accusing Jesus of promoting what He knew was pagan false doctrine!
The only reasonable conclusion, is that conscious life after death IS NOT pagan false doctrine, but the very truth Jesus chose to convey by simply reading Luke 16! There's no interpreting to do just read it as is!
Paul condemned using Jewish myths and fables in 1 Tim. 1:4; 4:7; 2 Tim. 4:4; Tit. 1:14; 2 Pet. 1:16!
Rather than call themselves false teachers, they call Jesus the false teacher!
Now PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT ATHEIST’S DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING SPIRITUAL AS A REALITY, HELL, HEAVEN, GOD….
SO THIS IS ONLY TO PROVE THAT JESUS TAUGHT THIS VERY IMPORTANT DOCTRINE AND IT WAS NOT A FALSE DOCTRINE!
Is there any real logic about the concept of Hell?
The ‘logic’ of hell in the bible is surprisingly simple:
You receive back the treatment/effects you gave others (including God and yourself) with some kind of multiplier effect.
The bible is full of images of this reciprocity concept:
1.) reaping what you sow...
2.) being paid back....
3.) suffering loss as you had despoiled others....
4.) unkindness for unkindness shown....
5.) apathy for apathy rendered.....
6.) 'eye for an eye'.....
7.) proportional judgment.
Most traditionalists also recognize that our exploitative actions toward others also modify our own characters in the process.
When I treat people destructively, I also treat myself in some way destructively.
When I treat people kindly, I also treat myself kindly.
From THE BOOK, Immortality: The Other Side of Death, by Gary Habermas and J.P. Moreland
“Before proceeding, though, one more preliminary is in order. We do not accept the idea that hell is a place where God actively tortures people forever and ever.
There will indeed be everlasting, conscious, mental and physical torment in various degrees according to the lives people have lived here on earth.
But the essence of that torment is relational in nature: the banishment from heaven and all it stands for.
Mental and physical anguish result from the sorrow and shame of the judgment of being forever rationally excluded from God, heaven, and so forth.
It is not due to God himself inflicting torture.”
“In response, we should first point out that we would agree that an un-ending hell of moment by moment, active torture by God would be unjust and hard to square with his love and the intrinsic dignity of man.
But we have already shown that our understanding of hell is different from the torture-chamber model.”
Hell is not a torture chamber, and people in hell are not howling like dogs in mind-numbing pain. There are degrees of anguish in hell.
“The Bible describes hell primarily in relational terms–
it is ‘away from’ God.
Therefore, it involves banishment from his presence, his purposes, and his followers.
Like heaven, hell is a freely chosen destination.
What we decide to believe and do in this life sets us on a road leading to a final destination in the next…Hell is also a place of shame, sorrow, regret, and anguish.
This intense pain is not actively produced by God; he is not a cosmic torturer. Undoubtedly, anguish and torment will exist in hell.
And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state, the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical.
But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, his kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place.
Hell’s occupants will deeply and tragically regret all they lost. As Jesus said, ‘For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?’ (Matt 16:26)”
“The Bible’s picture of hell, therefore, indicates that upon death, some people will be translated into a different, nonsocial mode of existence.
They will be conscious, and they will await the resurrection of their bodies, at which time they will be banished from heaven and secured in hell where they will experience unending, conscious exclusion from God, his people, and anything of value.
This banishment will include conscious sorrow, shame, and anguish to differing degrees, depending on the person’s life on earth.”
I could not have said it better myself, HELL HAS BEEN TOTALLY MISUNDERSTOOD BY EVEN THE CHURCH ITSELF…SO HOW MUCH MORE HAS IT BEEN MISUNDERSTOOD BY THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD?
The second is from a Catholic source…SURPRISED! I WAS!
A New Catechism:
Catholic Faith for Adults, Seabury:1966, p.480:
“Jesus speaks of the of one’s being eternally condemned. We read of ‘eternal punishment’ (Mt. 25:46).
This could be wrongly understood, as if a disaster or even an injustice then befell the damned, as can sometimes happen with punishments on earth.
Hence we find it more enlightening to express the same truth by the term ‘eternal sin’. The state of cold obstinacy has become eternal. They have become impervious to God, love, goodness, Christ and fellowship.
But it was for these things that man was made.
It is now a total perversion, sin brought to its fullest self-expression.
To be lost means to be entirely closed in on oneself, without contact with others or with God. This is the punishment, the ‘second death’ (Rev. 20:14).
Scripture uses terrifying words to express it: darkness, gnashing of teeth, fire. They need not be taken as literal descriptions.
They are apt expressions nonetheless of the dismay at having missed the end and object of existence.”
Let me point out here that these two sources would not be ‘liberal’ in ANY sense of the word. They would represent mainstream, conservative, traditional views of hell.
Moreland and Habermas, for example, would probably be considered ‘literalists’ when it comes to the Book of Revelation (probably pre-millennialist).
The couple of passages that paint potential “mind-numbing” pictures of torment in hell would not be ‘explained away’ by these two, but would be given full weight in constructing their comment quoted above.
There is no ‘softening’ of the reality of hell here by them, but there is no Dante here either (they literally refer to hell as “living in a state with a low quality of life”–hardly a description of mind-numbing torment! (p.173))…
Now, it is important here to make sure we understand this point–that the traditional view of hell does not contain the images of torture of Dante, the Greek and Roman writers, the Jewish pseudepigraphal writers, and many of the early Church Fathers.
